0:01:00 – Speaker 2
Greetings and salutations. Thank you for joining us. Yes, I’m Jonathan Nadeau, with you, as always. You can’t get rid of me, because if you did, you wouldn’t have a show. Well, honestly, you’d have a show without me, because this guest is awesome and amazing. So welcome to Embrace your Storm. Don’t forget, august 27th is around the corner and this film is going to be there. And if you miss this film, you might want to. No, I don’t want to say that, but you’re going to hate yourself if you do Now. Today, I have on Lon and this film Billy Kills. The Internet is amazing, awesome and fascinating on multiple levels, in all three of those words. So, lon, thanks for coming on. Man, if you could probably see him, he shouldn’t be blushing. He should be honored by this because this is a fantastic film. Lon, thanks for coming on.
0:01:43 – Speaker 3
Oh, absolutely. Thanks for having me, Jonathan.
0:01:45 – Speaker 2
Dude, again, billy kills the internet. You see the entire, like, okay, I have to watch this. Like you know, the email comes and you’re like great name, right. I open it up and I read the synopsis and I was like what? And the co-director of the film festival I live with him and I said, dude, you got to hear the synopsis. And he’s like what is it? I read it to him and he’s like, oh my God. And so I’m not saying anything to the audience yet. And so the audience knows I’m totally blind.
So my buddy watches the film. He’s like laughing and I’m watching it with him. But he’s describing it to me as it’s happening and he’s telling me what’s going on. He’s like you’re not going to believe this and he’s like telling me and I’m listening to the dialogue. So, as my fans here are listening to the podcast and Lon’s hearing me describe, you know his movie because he knows exactly everything I’m talking about. We’ll get to it soon. But, lon, how did you first get involved in filmmaking? Because I imagine this isn’t your first film, but I’d love to see other stuff you’ve worked on after seeing this.
0:02:49 – Speaker 3
Thanks so much, man. I appreciate it. I got into film at a very early age. I had a neighbor who lived down the street who lent us his VCR. He went out of town with a milk crate full of VHS tapes.
0:03:05 – Speaker 2
And.
0:03:05 – Speaker 3
I was way too young to have access to this.
0:03:08 – Speaker 1
But in that crate was.
0:03:09 – Speaker 3
Sam Raimi’s Evil Dead 2. Oh, my goodness, I’m about seven years old and I slip on this tape for Evil Dead 2. And I start hiding behind the couch immediately and just sort of like peeking up to take in the overwhelming ability to be terrifying. And because it’s you know, you look at it now as an adult. There’s definitely a campy over the top cartoonish element to Evil Dead 2., but as a kid, sure, and it is just a direct shot of pure terror. That fell.
0:03:47 – Speaker 2
Well, dude, it’s kind of funny. We’re close in age and I almost have the same story. I mean, my mother blessed her heart. I don’t know why, but at like five, six years old I mean, I’m a little bit younger than you I’m watching Friday 13th, part one, you know part two, and I’m just like yowza, you know like five or six years old, taking that stuff, and I was like whoo, you know like.
0:04:09 – Speaker 3
And we were bombarded by some pretty gnarly stuff you know they would play it on television and we just see these things and it just had a profound effect on me. The fact that media could be used in such a way to induce such a level of fear in me really changed my heart and my mind about what it was that I was put on this earth to do.
0:04:33 – Speaker 2
That’s interesting because, like you’re probably looking at this TV like, wow, this box is terrifying the hell out of me. Like, you know, like what’s in this, you know, like, and you wouldn’t think that I could do that. That’s a cool perspective. I never thought of looking at it that way.
0:04:45 – Speaker 3
And right away when I could get my hands on a camera. I was fascinated by stop motion animation and just the ability to use it as a means of storytelling. And right away, my brothers and I were, you know, performing in front of the camera and got excited about, you know, being able to plug in a soundtrack and all that analog era of what you had to do with, you know, RCA tables and Dude, you’re like dude, you’re like tapping into my memory.
0:05:18 – Speaker 2
It’s funny, I’ve had this, this conversation before but like I could see for 14 years before I got my car accident. So so I have these, like I called my sighted memories, right, but if you, if you picture my sighted memories as like an external hard drive, like off a computer, like yeah, they exist, the files are there, but the computers aren’t really touching those files all the time, right, like you go to you don’t go to those too often, but they’re there for you to. And so when I, when I think of those, those sighted memories, every now and then other things kind of trigger new ones that I sort of forgotten. Some of the stuff you’re saying, dude, it’s making me remember. Like again, I was kind of your age and I remember my mom having you probably have the same thing, man, like the VHS recorders where you put the VHS tape and the VHS like camera, you know, and you record straight to the VHS tape, dude, right.
So so this one time, man, what I did, I thought this was genius. Um, it was. It was being a bunch of my buddies and we were freestyling at this. It was a skate park, but there’s a ton of Rams to stuff. But we were freestyling there and I had my mom’s camera and I was like dude, check this out.
And I took my Walkman and, uh, at the you remember the Walkmans back in the day with those like wicked cheesy plastic headphone things, right, and the earpieces would just pop off right. So I popped off the earpieces, right off the clad, the stupid plastic headpiece. I took the earpieces tape, took one to one side of the microphone, one to the other, took scotch tape and just taped it around the earpieces of the of the headphones, the microphone Dude, it sounded like I put a legit like audio track over the video and I played like beastie boys, check your head over the over the whole time while we were being mixing. And when people saw the video they’re like how the heck did you get the audio on there? Cause it sounded like a. It looked like an MTV video.
0:07:04 – Speaker 3
At the time when doing that was really hard it wasn’t. It was a very challenging process to to manipulate media in any way If you didn’t have access to like traditional, very expensive filmmaking equipment.
0:07:19 – Speaker 2
Yeah, dude, you said you did stop motion. It’s like you were legit like cutting tape and stuff in right.
0:07:24 – Speaker 3
Yeah, so right away with the cameras that were made available to us, we figured out ways that we could kind of manipulate them to do what we needed them to do, and it was. I think with those old cameras you would start the record and then you had to pause the recording and stuff.
0:07:41 – Speaker 2
Yeah, you could pause it.
0:07:43 – Speaker 3
There was this sort of this process of like and I got amazing at in-camera editing with those Sony handy cams where it had like a had like a switch on the top and you could actually, frame by frame, move back to where you’re starting spot and then, before you would record, you had to get your, your, your action happening and start the process. So I got like incredibly good at editing in-camera, which is totally useless and insane to think about it now.
0:08:13 – Speaker 2
No, but think about it, though. Here’s one thing that’s cool about it is like you know what you didn’t. Let that stop you like frick it man. I’m going to freaking, figure out how to do whatever I need to do with what I got, and if I got to start doing the action before it’s recorded, that’s what I got to do, you know like, which is why, you know, people of our generation can never take for granted what is available to us now, with all these editing suites and what is now?
0:08:35 – Speaker 3
possible. It’s just as a filmmaker it’s. It’s incredibly exciting to just be able to do it so easily Now. I’ve been working for a long time and preserving my love of the industry, my love of filmmaking. You know it can be challenging when you 100% immerse yourself.
0:08:52 – Speaker 2
Dude, I hear you, which that’s going to lead me to, to Billy kills you in one second. But one thing I want to say is, um, you saying like it’s you know, leading back to you saying like it’s amazing, we have, like all these tools right, like, literally right now. You could probably do a search, do it and find five free video editing tools right now, like, you know what I’m saying, and so everyone listening right now literally has no excuse as to why you’re not downloading something and starting something right now, like, bought, like listen to what lawn did, like he was just saying that’s pure insanity. Sure, yeah, it is, but when you, when you’re, you’re, uh, you have a fire for it. That’s not going to stop you and you’re going to do that. But, like you, if you don’t have enough fire to download one of free five available things, there’s something wrong with you. Like, am I wrong? Lawn and my, am I?
0:09:40 – Speaker 3
So I mean, listen, my education is really all about appreciation, really.
0:09:45 – Speaker 2
Yeah.
0:09:46 – Speaker 3
Of what it took to get to where we’re at now, to make it so easy. You know, kids that are coming into it, that are that are, you know, being born in this, are kind of it’s unfortunate because they will not necessarily experience that journey, that analog to digital jump, which was such an incredible leap in media technology and to make it accessible for so many people.
0:10:11 – Speaker 2
Or I think too, with the tools, because we were saying like, kind of being like, oh, imagine being born with like the internet already, right, like. So what if you’re born in this internet world? Right, and in this world it’s like, I guess, what do you do when you’re overwhelmed, almost bombarded with like free creative tools? What do you do then?
0:10:30 – Speaker 3
Yeah, it’s, it’s it. I think it’s overwhelming is the issue. I think the kids that might have an inclination to, you know, stretch some of their creative muscles in their brain are distracted by so many other things that are very, very intelligently designed to pull them in and keep them addicted to whatever video game or whatever algorithm is out there. So I think the challenge now is simply breaking free of the matrix of it all.
0:10:59 – Speaker 2
Yeah, and you know what. That’s why being blind pays off, and I’m being serious, I tell people me getting in my car. So it’s like the not one of it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Because I’ll tell you what seeing is is a privilege. It’s nice, it has its niceities and whatnot, but this very thing we’re talking about right here not seeing is very nice because I’m not distracted. Trust me, I get distracted, but not like that, not to that extent and not in that way. And I I appreciate that a lot because I have seen for 14 years and I can understand, even though I haven’t experienced it. I can understand how distracting this world can be right now, and so I’m aware of the distraction. I am missing, you know.
0:11:39 – Speaker 1
And so but.
0:11:41 – Speaker 2
But you’re right, we need to find a way for you know, when you’re being bombarded, to consume. Why create?
0:11:47 – Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, Totally. Well, it’s so interesting because I’m I’m kind of learning about your situation as you’re, as you’re telling me and it’s I can see why Billy kills. The internet would resonate with you on a certain level.
0:11:59 – Speaker 2
Yeah.
0:11:59 – Speaker 3
Yeah, man Experience the audio of it, because it’s a very well mixed film as well.
0:12:05 – Speaker 2
No, it is, it’s, it’s. It’s amazing, Honestly Like because you’re, you’re, you’re here and someone’s reviewed from it that didn’t see it, but they appreciated it from the dialogue and they knew exactly where you’re coming from and then when they? And then, and then, when the, the, the visuals were explained and made it, you know, a hundred times funnier, you know.
0:12:23 – Speaker 3
Yeah, that’s so cool. That’s so cool. I love it. That’s a huge compliment to my brother too, who who mixed the movie.
0:12:29 – Speaker 2
We’ve always worked together in that capacity. We always come back as a package deal. There you go.
If you can find a good sound mixer man, hold on to them, because exactly, and you know what An, an, an, an sort of off topic but on topic thing. Like I’m a, I’m a musician I’m always a huge fan of like bands that have like brothers in them, you know like, or or bands that are just like family members, cause I I have a strong belief of this is the. The spirit behind tornado, like everyone has that. We’ll just call it a spirit for the sake of terminology and vocabulary. Everyone’s got that spirit and then that makes them them Right, like there’s whatever in you that makes you lawn, whatever in me that makes me Jonathan.
Now, when you talk about like families, obviously you’re like, related to whatnot. So like when you have that sort of creativity that’s in lawn, if you have other siblings and parents and whatnot, that sort of creativity ish cling is sort of similar and very interesting happens when you get two brains together that are sort of in that same wavelength. So I’m always a huge fan of like families and brothers working together, cause I just it’s so fascinating to me to see like what happens, because there’s there’s always a good possibility of just naturally being subconsciously on that same wavelength already.
0:13:45 – Speaker 3
Sure, sure yeah. That’s a fantastic point about Billy kills because it’s such a family film. I mean it is very entrenched in family. Yeah, no people have made it.
0:13:55 – Speaker 2
Yeah, no, it’s, it’s, it’s awesome and like, and, and again, I think it’s so you know what? So Billy kills the internet. I’m we don’t want to tell him everything. I think it’d be better if, maybe, if you, I want you to tease the audience, but don’t give everything away, Cause I’d be afraid of giving away too much, but cause they, they need to see this film and they and they will. But what’s your, your elevator pitch for Billy kills the internet.
0:14:18 – Speaker 3
Sure Well, billy kills the internet is the story of a seven year old boy in a spaceship. He’s a commander of a spaceship with a crew of puppets and his baby sister, stella. So right off the bat, it makes no sense at all.
0:14:34 – Speaker 1
Right, we’re in the.
0:14:35 – Speaker 3
We’re completely in the realm of absurdity and I think that sets the tone for the rest of the film, because the idea of killing the internet is absurd, Right. So we had to kind of embrace that in a way. That was was going to work for the, for the narrative, but then we what it? What it essentially is, is a. It’s kind of a play on the never ending story. If you remember the, the, the oh yeah, oh yeah, Absolutely the. Nothing threatened the world of Fantasia because people had stopped reading books. So we take a similar cute from that and we have kind of a wizard from some other galaxy explained to Billy you know that he summoned Billy for this purpose that there is a fungus that is destroying worlds across the cosmos and it’s this fungus that is actually the internet. It starts off as really cool, we think it’s great, Everyone embraces it, but suddenly we realize we’re in trouble and this fungus consumes the planet.
Essentially, so he’s he, he he sent out an impossible mission which, apparently, others have attempted it but have failed to destroy it once and for all, and he has to, you know, get a special power in order to do it. And he finds that in an area that has been removed from the knowledge base of what the internet represents, because that’s what they all use to find things which is it’s called the lilacs quadrant.
And the lilacs quadrant is Vishnu, and Vishnu has been commandeered by, by the internet. He’s got four arms that are that have four cell phones. Yeah, they’re just running across all the and he’s just in agony.
0:16:19 – Speaker 2
You. You’re explained this way because I love how you gave away nothing which is which is awesome, which is why. I’m laughing when you’re like oh yeah, this happens. I know what’s going on.
0:16:32 – Speaker 3
I had so much fun visualizing, you know these, these set pieces, and figuring out ways to kind of, you know, bring the theme into these absurd, cosmic kind of you know scenarios. And you know it kind of follows a traditional narrative where you know the lead has to defeat, you know kind of a mini boss at the, at the, at the midpoint Exactly, take on the final. And it’s very much also inspired by video games and video games.
0:17:02 – Speaker 2
Absolutely, absolutely. Oh, totally, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
0:17:06 – Speaker 3
That plays a big part in in terms of the, the the third act is, and the third act really, really pulls people in. Like if you’re not 100% on board, like you know, kind of the halfway point it suddenly does something to the audience, and I’ve noticed this during screenings, where it draws you in at that at that last 10 minutes people just like really get glued to it.
0:17:31 – Speaker 2
I would. I would say, right, there is where you need to stop like Sort of describing like the plot in synopsis I I want to talk about. Yeah, I mean, you sort of mentioned this, but like dude, you have puppets in this like real people doing stuff and like I don’t know if it’s claymation. You’re like doing stop motion stuff. You’re doing like animator dude. You like kind of did everything a filmmaker could do in like one film. It was like. It was like you’re just like why not? You know, like if we’re gonna kill the internet, we need like every weapon, right, like that’s a great way to kind of describe it.
0:18:06 – Speaker 3
It is leaning on every means of visual effects and what the I’m not a Crazy effects wizard, I mean, some people might say that I’m skilled in that way, but like I’m doing what I know and what I can lean on to pull it off, you know.
0:18:26 – Speaker 2
I’ll say that. I’ll say this people, people probably hear what life people, puppets, claimation, it all works. No way. I’m telling you you watch this thing and you’d be like, wow, okay. Like it’s like I don’t I mean, I, you know. First of all, it’s like sure, I’m wordless and speechless because I’m blind and I can’t explain the thing that I haven’t seen. But Understanding technically the mechanics behind that is inexplicable. Like I’m a smart guy, like I got a computer science degree you know I built an operating system that was used in over 30 countries. Like I understand a lot of stuff. I’m in the crypto and all that. Like I get a lot of stuff. I know what kind of what kind of stuff it takes to get this done. And like getting it done the way he did, it’s like no joke. That’s what I’m trying to say. Like you know people that own to understand the technical prowess behind it. We’ll look at it quickly and be like, yeah, yeah, it’s cool or whatever, but it’s legit, like very impressive you know.
0:19:19 – Speaker 3
Thank you so much, man. That really means a lot. I mean, cinema is the art of illusion, right, right, right. If you can figure out ways and listen, now you can do things that are so you can do, and you can do so much more than you could ever do before, especially on the consumer level.
0:19:36 – Speaker 2
I know exactly.
0:19:37 – Speaker 3
It took me a long time to make this film. I’m not gonna say it was easy. Okay, it was many, many frames a lot of animation.
But but you know what drives a filmmaker can be a strong theme and because I really believed in in the work and Kind of the mission, I really got behind. You know what we were trying to accomplish and when it came to the third act, I there was this sense of like oh it’s over, bit, it’s so much it’s so. You know, you can kind of feel the the weight of it when you know, a big team that is supporting you. It’s just like totally, you totally.
I, I kind of just picked up my, you know my.
0:20:21 – Speaker 1
Scraps or whatever, and I got it done.
0:20:23 – Speaker 3
I just. Every night I would hammer away, you know, if the computer crashed. Fuck, I got a start over again. Exactly.
0:20:30 – Speaker 2
Yeah, dude.
0:20:32 – Speaker 3
And there was something. There was just something driving me and then when I delivered it to my brother to do Sound, I think, I think I sent him on a similar process where he came back. He came back to me, he was like you know he was, he was exhausted, but he was right. But I love it. I love it and I have to, I have to vent, you know, because I love this so much.
Exactly, man, exactly, I know what you’re talking about, there’s something that we have to. You know, it was like we were on a mission to get this thing done and no, and they were.
0:21:02 – Speaker 2
It’s well, well deserved. I mean, I really appreciate it.
0:21:07 – Speaker 3
I’ve been taken aback by the success of the thing I film. Freeway is another modern oh yeah for filmmakers what you can do on that website, I mean I submitted it to.
0:21:19 – Speaker 2
First of all, I got written up on film threat, which was, which was no, that’s a great yeah, that’s a great place to be written up on, for sure.
0:21:26 – Speaker 3
So having a really positive right up there helped me. I put it into every cover letter that I sent out to every festival I submitted it to so they all saw that there was a Certain clout. You know that the film had absolutely.
0:21:37 – Speaker 2
That’s what you gotta do, man.
0:21:39 – Speaker 3
And I’ve been really just sort of Blown away by the reception of it worldwide. It’s won over 20 awards.
0:21:46 – Speaker 2
Wow, why don’t you definitely get a win, whatever from us? I mean that’s clear.
0:21:53 – Speaker 3
Trying trying to get someone to actually sit down and watch a 24-minute film who is who is programming festivals is a challenge in and of itself. Yeah, to simply pull someone through the narrative so that they do feel what I want them to feel is is challenging. So I do get rejected from a lot as well, and oftentimes I feel like maybe they just didn’t really watch it.
0:22:16 – Speaker 2
You know, they didn’t yeah, you know what dude, you know what dude. Honestly, my my opinion I might be like an outlier film festival. I don’t have much, I’m not in the film industry right, so I’m very different when it comes to that sense. Like, I Co-brand a festival for four years but this is the first year I’m doing it. I’m not new to do an events. I’ve helped. I’ve helped high-end technology events at Harvard University, you know a bunch of other stuff. So putting on events is nothing new.
But the way the film industry kind of treats you as a submitter is quite disturbing in my opinion. You know everyone has kind of their niche or what they’re trying to do. I mean, if you read my festival it’s like, hey look, you got this thing. That was this fire burning inside you. Enough to the point we made this film. Enough to the point where you know you’re gonna pay money to like watch. You’re gonna pay money for people to watch your film and hopefully they’ll show up to someone else, right, like so you can’t.
You came to that extent. Let me, let me help you find people watch your movie, like because I’m a creator. I get it. I’m a technology guy and I’m a creator and so I know how to kind of bring Mary technology in with the creativity world, and so that’s how I’m coming at the film festival is like I’m not looking at how to like try to make money off you like it sounds like half these other ones are, but I’m trying to say, hey, man, like here’s my newest thing. I’m telling people you’re probably looking for distribution and guess what the internet is your distribution. Not that you want to hear that, but that’s the day and age we live in now. Like If you go to a distribution company, they’re gonna be pitching your film to the very people on the internet that you can reach yourself. So it’s like there’s no more reason for the distribution company at all.
0:23:54 – Speaker 3
I hear you, man, I, my plan, my, my distribution plan is interesting and it’s and it’s unconventional. Well, I’ll just say that, yeah, I have. I have something in the works and I will be releasing it, more information about it soon, but it is very much my own distribution pipeline.
0:24:11 – Speaker 2
You know that’s gonna be interesting.
0:24:13 – Speaker 3
Yeah, I think a lot of filmmakers are coming to the realization that self-distribution Absolutely probably the most Optimal solution so well, self-distribution to a point.
0:24:25 – Speaker 2
Here’s the problem of self-distribution when you when you say it this way because here’s on picturing it when you say self-distribution, are you meaning like your own website, selling your stuff and blah blah blah? Yeah, sure, but here’s the problem if everyone’s doing that, now You’re putting a million more websites on the internet or whatever. Now each person has to be found individually as filmmakers and blah blah blah. So, unfortunately, there still needs to be some type of Netflix that completely isn’t Netflix. There needs to be some some Netflix type platform that is on internet.
0:24:57 – Speaker 3
Yeah, and because I think there’s so many tiers of what distribution represents, I I feel comfortable in, you know, grabbing on to a self-distribution Window.
Yeah, art to begin and it goes, if it goes well enough, and I also have a plan for Doing the soundtrack first, mmm, promoting the soundtrack as a as a piece, yeah, that you can pay us an amount of money and pull the, the digital download, down, and you know I’m gonna start with that. And then what I noticed today was that I I have a Facebook page for the Film. Yeah, I invited all my friends to like it. And what I noticed today is that I think I’ve got like a 120 that are not my friend, that are let that have liked it, so that, that, right, there is like a sign of Exactly start, of some level of awareness and success on the part of you know getting the word out.
0:25:52 – Speaker 2
Exactly. No, totally. I agree with what you’re saying. There needs to be that. There needs to be sort of a Dumb pipeline, if you will like a place for for someone to go to find you know, independent Not not even just have to say independent film a place to go to find something other than Netflix, right, or Hulu or whatever you want to kind of label that streaming stuff as right. Yeah, there needs to be. There needs to be that place where where individuals can go and upload their stuff with no sort of gatekeeper, so that way the public can decide whether or not that person’s work is Worth buying slash, renting slash, whatever. And if you start to build up for your audience, like you’re saying, you then leverage your audience From there and you go on your own very way.
And you know I’m saying then you’re able to Kind of build your own brand from there, you know.
0:26:42 – Speaker 3
Absolutely, and I think I think independent film is a is a pretty wide realm of passion projects and it’s easy to Believe in something you’ve created, but then is it is it? Is it something, objectively, that’s working, that that somebody will sit there, not know anyone involved in the production and Genuinely consume it and like it to the degree of telling people that they saw something they really liked? I mean, that’s the competitive element to me, exactly, and that’s something that really resonates, that really objectively works, you know, and that’s what this platform would allow because, like you said, everyone’s got their passion projects.
0:27:19 – Speaker 2
I mean, I’m sure every filmmaker thinks their films the best, regardless, you know, whatever quality it is, wherever the best I could do with it I’m.
You know you would hope every filmmaker thinks their films the best.
So you, if you have a website and like an unbiased website that’s like, hey, load up your, load your film, sell it, stream it, whatever, and let let the audience decide what it is like, then there’s no more arguments Like is it compelling, you know, to be to be watched, if our people giving their dollar to watch it or whatever, are they tweeting it?
You know, I’m saying like, if you’re not able, even things sort of get on that platform, who’s to ever say like, yeah, yeah, where of that realm now where it’s like, hey, the guy with the money has to decide if my story, not, not even if my story is good enough or Whatever, if my story can make him ten times more than he gives me to make it, that that’s the only thing that matters at the end of the day, you know and so, so now you don’t need to worry about that. If you can get your film made or you know what. You could find someone that believes in your film or believes in your project gives you ten grand and now you can make it. But if you don’t have the platform to put it on, why is that matter anymore? I mean and again it’s kind of like you yeah, youtube’s exist, but it’s like that’s just 48 hours of video is uploaded every minute to YouTube.
0:28:34 – Speaker 3
Oh man, I mean, I think it might be more than that, Jonathan. I think it might be more.
0:28:40 – Speaker 2
So like. So so try catching up with that fire hose.
0:28:42 – Speaker 3
Right, absolutely. And there’s an instinct, I think, for filmmakers that when they finish a project they really want people to see it. And YouTube can be that knee-jerk reaction to get something out there and you start seeing the view count go up and that becomes kind of the extent of your distribution and you know there’s not a ton of money to be made in terms of ad revs at this point. Oh no, well, here’s what has to happen with the platform.
0:29:12 – Speaker 2
I was saying, like here’s kind of the problem of what happened not even just film, but content makers in general is the subscription service that has what has killed content creators, because it’s devalued content to such an extent where it’s like pay 20 bucks, watch it whatever you want, right? Like this costs nothing to make, right? I mean, do people pay 20 bucks and go eat as much as they want everywhere they go to eat? You know what I’m saying?
0:29:39 – Speaker 3
So it’s like sure, as a person who loves this stuff and seeks out the interesting films, I still want to get it on a Blu-ray. I you know, I thought that promo for Stephen Kostansky’s Psycho Gorman and I was like yes, what is this?
0:29:54 – Speaker 1
I want to know more.
0:29:55 – Speaker 3
And his marketing efforts and the efforts they put into that were brilliant. You know, it totally inspired me to like own it physically, you know, and I’m a big, I’m a big proponent of physical media.
0:30:07 – Speaker 2
Exactly, and we, so we need to change kind of the mind you know, start to change, bring the mindset back to maybe that mentality where it’s like you know what this content it’s, it’s, it’s valuable, like, right, it’s not just this oh, I paid my 20 bucks and I can do whatever I want with that kind of thing. Right, because do whatever.
0:30:25 – Speaker 3
I want, with an entire inventory of of content that’s going to be ever changing and programmed and I, yeah, I mean. I I come across these huge budget Hollywood productions on Netflix and I start watching them. I’m like they didn’t market this to me. I don’t know what this is. I mean, it looks beautiful and it’s got stars and it’s got you know all the people, but I don’t really know what I’m, you know, and then I get distracted and I don’t finish it.
0:30:50 – Speaker 2
And the, the, the. So the other part of the problem is the, the, the Netflix companies you know, and, and Spotify, they devalue. You know you’re getting what 0.003% of a stream Like if you’re lucky, right, so, right. So if you get 50 cents for someone to watch or stream your film, that’s 5,000 times more than Spotify gives you.
0:31:12 – Speaker 3
Absolutely, Absolutely I you know it’s taken me to be about 40 years old to to acknowledge this and to learn no me too, I’m realizing, like the, I’m guilty of loving Spotify because it’s awesome to be.
0:31:25 – Speaker 2
Like every song I ever want to hear is at like my fingertips. I’m like this is so cool, but they’re not really getting paid for it. You know what I’m saying? Like the real person that created that song that you’re enjoying is really getting like ripped off, but you’re you’re getting the entertainment from it. You know I?
0:31:42 – Speaker 3
totally agree. I totally agree, I was. You know, I was watching something on YouTube and it was called Poppy. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of. Poppy, oh, yeah, oh yeah, she’s so interesting and she is amazing the stuff that she has put out and the way she plays with the, the platform, as a means of experimentation, and in the way she’s always changing and the, the brand, is never pinned down to one thing.
0:32:07 – Speaker 2
Oh, I know her music is amazing. I find her fascinating.
0:32:10 – Speaker 3
So that’s another one where I was like I want to seek out a physical CD, I want to own a Poppy CD and I had to go to the UK to get it and it took.
0:32:18 – Speaker 1
like you, know a month or two to show up in my mailbox.
0:32:22 – Speaker 3
But yeah, like it’s stuff. It’s stuff, like that. It’s if you can create a product or a brand that resonates on a level that that that you know inspires that desire to own something and have hands, you know, tangible, that you can touch.
0:32:38 – Speaker 2
Exactly, there’s value to that no there is for sure, and and I and I think you know I’ll well not I think, but obviously kids, you know that have grown up kind of with this in this digital age where they either I don’t really know what they think of the analog age, where people like, say, where people had record albums right, or people had their DVD collection, you know, like I don’t know what they would necessarily think of that. They’d be like oh, it’s a waste of space, or who cares, like I want to whatever I want, whatever I want to figure my tips like. I don’t think that, like you’re saying, I don’t think they understand to that extent what you were just describing that ownership part.
0:33:12 – Speaker 3
I really am raising my kids differently because I know they’re seeing me interact with all this media. I mean I’ve got a lot. I’ve got a laser disc collection. Oh dude, I’ve got a ton of VHS. I love the DVD Blu-rays, you know so I, and I’ve held onto it. I never felt with CDs, music that kind of collapsed because of yeah, yeah. I couldn’t. I couldn’t keep up with music, unfortunately, but film, I’ve really tried to protect it. You know, I’ve really tried to laser disc.
0:33:44 – Speaker 2
Oh man, yeah, laser disc is wild.
0:33:46 – Speaker 3
One of the reasons why I love laser disc is because A it represents an era that is very much pre-internet. So if you just search for a laser disc on eBay, every title that shows up is something from that era, that is, before the digital kind of takeover, exactly. So if you’re feeling burned out on web culture. Search the word laser disc and it’ll like immediately take you back to this like this time before.
0:34:17 – Speaker 2
Man, I can remember going to a yard sale with my, with my mom at like, you know, in like 1986. And we’d buy. We bought a laser disc player and came with like, yeah, the summer rental, amadeus Breakfast Club. I had the laser disc player, dude, it was awesome.
0:34:32 – Speaker 3
Yeah, they’re cool, and there’s a lot of films that actually did not make it to DVD, and laser disc remains the best format for a number of obscure yet very entertaining titles.
0:34:44 – Speaker 2
That is funny, no kidding.
0:34:46 – Speaker 3
Yeah, there’s a ton of them. There’s way more than I thought, and I keep discovering new ones.
0:34:51 – Speaker 2
Man, that is so cool. So then do how big is, like your, your DVD Blu-ray collection? Like I mean, you said you’re protecting that, you have like a pretty big collection. Yeah, you know those.
0:35:01 – Speaker 3
Billy bookcases you know, yeah, I want to say like seven feet high, 1234567, like rows deep. Well, man, two of them and they go, one on one side of my television and one on the other.
0:35:19 – Speaker 2
Oh, my goodness. And I’ve got 1000 genre or do you have like all types of movies?
0:35:24 – Speaker 3
I’ve got all kinds of movies. I’m a big, so it’s cool Imagine, but franchises I’ve condensed into. You know I love the, the six disc carriers that are condensed into like a normal looking DVD. But you, inside there’s six discs.
0:35:40 – Speaker 2
Oh, yeah, yeah, that way you can.
0:35:41 – Speaker 3
You can kind of overlap inserts and you can have all the predator films you know in one collection. So that’s the way I’ve been able to manage it. But it is it’s. It is a challenge, it is, and I have to part with things sometimes. And in Hollywood here there’s a company called Amoeba and you can bring physical media to Amoeba and they will either give you money or store credit for it. And yeah, that still exists.
0:36:06 – Speaker 2
So they must do. They must have a truck like like a, a version of this, if you will, if they walk in there, and they must be like, oh dear Lord, like, like. How much money do I have from my account, you know, like yeah, well, they’re also really smart about what has value and what is a dime a dozen.
0:36:22 – Speaker 3
So if you bring stuff to them and I will I’ll bring them rare stuff because I am a big consumer of all this kind of media and vinegar syndrome. And a number of these other companies sever in. They’ve been putting out so many obscure titles and doing these 4k and HD transfer.
0:36:39 – Speaker 2
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Time out a minute. I might be a step behind this conversation. Are you saying they’re still putting out new laser discs?
0:36:49 – Speaker 3
No, not laser discs, Okay okay, okay okay, there is a there is a VHS company that is actually does that for the sole purpose of nostalgia. They will.
0:36:59 – Speaker 2
The only reason why you asked that is because I interviewed this guy that that was legit. There’s people that make new Atari games. They take the cartridges out and they reprogram them and they make new Atari games. It’s ridiculous. So that’s why I was like wait a minute, dude, are you saying people you know? That’s why I’m sorry to interrupt you that way. That’s why I was like that’s gonna be sick if that’s what he’s saying.
0:37:23 – Speaker 3
No, no. But I mean it is exciting that there are still companies that are that are digging up these old, obscure films.
0:37:29 – Speaker 2
No, totally.
0:37:30 – Speaker 3
HD transfers because in the analog era we were not seeing them in their proper form.
0:37:35 – Speaker 2
Oh, no, no, no, no, so I mean in audio too.
0:37:39 – Speaker 3
I mean, it gets cleaned up so well, to the point where you’re really experiencing the director’s intention for the first time when you’re seeing them in this capacity. So that is an element of the modern era that I very much appreciate.
0:37:52 – Speaker 2
So what did you? You must have done something before Billy kills you. Like, what are the kinds of things that you’ve done?
0:37:57 – Speaker 3
Well, I got into this business. I went to film school 2000 through 2004 over at Columbia College in Chicago, nice, and I got a degree in directing and minor in editing and right off the bat I started working for General Motors over in Detroit Sounds about right? Yeah, I was doing like safety, safety videos and stuff like that. And I had friends that I had collaborated creatively with, you know, when we were kids and they were trying to get a horror movie off the ground and that sounded to me.
So there was a Detroit effort to do this movie called the Tower, and so this is back in like 2008. That finally got distributed. But the tower is a really cool experimental kind of art house film that I was able to have a big, you know, creative input on.
I did all the music. I edited the film. My wife is the lead. I did a bunch of like you know I performance in it. I did makeup. You know, I did a character that had his eyes blind and I had these nice contacts put in to make to give you the white eye, you know, you know yeah, yeah, look exactly. Yeah, yeah. So I did, I did this, this really weird, cool movie, and then we got it into AFM in like 2009. That’s when I got to LA, it got distributed.
0:39:18 – Speaker 2
Your first film got into AFM.
0:39:21 – Speaker 3
Well, it wasn’t my film per se. I definitely was a big part of the production, but it did. Yeah, it was that AFM.
0:39:28 – Speaker 2
That’s no joke OK.
0:39:29 – Speaker 3
Yeah, a company of sales rep that we got in touch with had it and then we got it distributed in Japan. Yeah, that was kind of the full scope of what we accomplished with that. And I was then now I was living in Los Angeles and jumping around as a production assistant on big movies, so I was finally learning like how the big movies get made, which is really fascinating. I kind of cut my teeth on Fast and the Furious, oh man, and like second unit stuff, so all the cars.
0:40:00 – Speaker 2
Dude, dude. Speaking of second unit, I’m going to put this out there. Danny, Of course I can’t remember his last name. He played on the second unit. He was one of the trolls, Danny.
0:40:13 – Speaker 3
Parable. It is from from from Fast and Furious or another.
0:40:17 – Speaker 2
No, no, no no, from from Special Unit too. That show Special Unit too. Oh OK, danny, his real name is Danny. He played a troll in Second Unit, special Unit too.
0:40:28 – Speaker 3
OK, I’m talking about Second Unit. Oh, Second.
0:40:32 – Speaker 2
Unit never mind, never mind, oh, that’s OK, no, no.
0:40:35 – Speaker 3
Second Unit is using.
0:40:37 – Speaker 2
OK.
0:40:37 – Speaker 3
Second Unit is the team that comes in and does a lot of the, the harder kind of like practical work that makes up some of these special effect shots in these movies.
0:40:47 – Speaker 2
Oh, oh that’s cool.
0:40:48 – Speaker 3
You watch a film like Fast and the Furious. First Unit is going to be the, the talent right, all the stars and their drama in those moments and some some of the action stuff, but the, the real blatant, like cars flipping through the air and explosions and all that stuff that’s done by a different team altogether and that’s Second Unit.
0:41:08 – Speaker 2
That’s cool dude.
0:41:09 – Speaker 3
And it was kind of like a military form of what I would call art school, you know.
0:41:14 – Speaker 2
I believe it. I believe it, man. Yeah, it was some monster computers and like some serious software.
0:41:22 – Speaker 3
Oh yeah. So in the in the post end, it’s a whole nother beast. And I started to get more involved with digital. I worked for a company called Machinima for about five years. Ok, machinima was doing a lot of digital and that’s where I kind of jumped from what was happening in the traditional realm of Hollywood to then what was happening on the digital front with YouTube and multi channel networks and all that stuff. And while I was there I continued to try and make independent films and I made one called Attack of the Devil, nice, and Attack of the Devil was my first. You know, comprehensive like try to do a lot of things, try to have a big idea. You would probably appreciate that one as well.
0:42:11 – Speaker 2
Absolutely.
0:42:11 – Speaker 3
There’s. It’s kind of like a combination of giant monster, kaiju stuff, nice, with a musical element. There’s, there’s, there’s a literal like musical.
0:42:24 – Speaker 2
Do you like? What’s the state of that film? So?
0:42:27 – Speaker 3
Attack of the Devil is just on YouTube. You know that was. That was just distributed digitally on YouTube and I let it happen. It’s also got a really strong theme that I believed in about circumcision. How old is that film? Attack of the Devil is 2014,. I believe. Ok, ok.
0:42:44 – Speaker 2
I was going to say, man, I’m going to submit it into the festival, but I’m still going to watch it though, because it sounds amazing, just because I know what Capel of doing. So I have to see that now, that’s what I’m saying.
0:42:56 – Speaker 3
Yes, yes, if you like, feel like it’s the Internet. You’re probably like Attack of the Devil.
0:42:59 – Speaker 2
OK, perfect, perfect, perfect. Yeah, dude, I mean you are. Yeah, I love how creative you are because, like I said we, we grew up, we saw Analog turned into digital and you really mess with that. On, billy kills the Internet Like it’s yeah, absolutely so cool.
0:43:18 – Speaker 3
I love having a reference for all of all of these things. And another element of Billy kills the Internet is ventriloquism. And ventriloquism goes way back and it’s fascinating when you, when you, when you kind of look at the history of that particular art form. Those puppets have a certain quality, a certain kind of antique Creakiness they do. They do they kind of have a power about them.
So I started I started to really kind of collect those dolls, those, and I made two custom ones. In Billy kills there’s Vishnu. Oh, you made that one. Yeah, that’s entirely fabricated.
0:43:55 – Speaker 2
But I can’t, yeah, when I tell my friend he’s going to be blown away by that. See, he was laughing so hard at that one. He was like he’s like I can’t even tell you what it looks like. He’s like he was laughing so hard. He’s just like he did the best he could and, trust me, I’m sure he did a good job. But he’s going to be blown away when he knows you made it though.
0:44:18 – Speaker 3
Well, Vishnu is like one of the gods, one of like, yeah, yeah, you know Indian.
0:44:22 – Speaker 2
No, no, but he just loved how you did it though. Oh, thank you so much.
0:44:26 – Speaker 3
Yeah, I was really proud of the paint that I found that was able to get the blue skin tone.
0:44:32 – Speaker 2
So yeah.
0:44:34 – Speaker 3
Oh yeah, there’s another. There’s two other creatures that are that are kind of like ventriloquist dummies that show up in the film that I made. One of them is a big monster that they encounter in the dark realm, and another is the final boss. Oh man which is also a ventriloquist.
0:44:52 – Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, he is going to. He’s not going to believe you made those maybe. I’m glad we’re recording this.
0:44:59 – Speaker 3
Yeah, well, you know, and that’s like another route, like being a filmmaker is wearing a lot of hats.
0:45:04 – Speaker 2
It is.
0:45:06 – Speaker 3
I’ve definitely done a lot of different aspects of the the business, and one of them is fabrication and prop building, and it’s a whole other realm of like where you, you know, use all the assets that you can to create a very unique item that is needed for for the film, and my wife works in props.
0:45:24 – Speaker 2
That’s awesome dude.
0:45:26 – Speaker 3
Yeah, she got a job.
0:45:27 – Speaker 2
I was going to say, like, again, we’re kind of from, you know, not kind of, but we’re. We’re in that generation where you, as a filmmaker, as a creator, you’re kind of like All right, I need, you know, this doll for lack of a better term, whatever to look like this One doesn’t exist. Okay, like what do I need to make a doll? You know what I’m saying. Like you, don’t let it stop you. You still, you still execute the idea, you get it done.
0:45:50 – Speaker 3
You know what I’m saying? Yeah, yeah, I mean, that’s what being an artist is.
0:45:53 – Speaker 2
And that’s what I’m hoping people listen to, get where it’s like look, you know, yeah, there’s a hurdle, the, you know, the the character doesn’t exist. You need make it. You know, like that, that’s part of being a creator, right? Yeah?
0:46:07 – Speaker 3
And a lot of it is like spending the money that you need to spend to accomplish the thing that you’re. That you’re, you know, as a filmmaker and a movie connoisseur, whatever of Centipile that’s kind of what. I spend my money on. I don’t. I’m not a gamer. If I, if I did a lot of video games, I, I, I cut my teeth on the, the NES and the Super NES.
0:46:28 – Speaker 2
You’re in me too. That’s mine, that’s mine. Those are my jams. There you go.
0:46:31 – Speaker 3
Yeah yeah, playstation came out. Playstation was pretty cool, but like I started to kind of drift away from it because I could feel just how enticing it is to put your time into those things and as, as awesome as they are. And, my God, the modern stuff is unbelievable.
0:46:48 – Speaker 2
And those things are cinematic all on their own.
0:46:50 – Speaker 3
Oh, absolutely. Now I mean they are. They are pulling off incredible feats of technology and storytelling with video games.
0:46:58 – Speaker 2
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
0:46:59 – Speaker 3
It’s a very, very cool aspect of this industry. I definitely learned a ton about it when I was at Machinima, because that was the bread and butter, really, of what they were doing over there. You know content that. I believe that yeah created by gamers, about gamers. Exactly, it’s a whole another realm of this industry. But totally, if I got sucked into that, I would just have no time left to do anything else.
0:47:23 – Speaker 2
Well, which is why none of our kids do.
0:47:27 – Speaker 3
Right, right, and it’s sad, like I really. I really have to put my foot down to make sure that that the kids are experiencing more to life than just what those those games are are so brilliantly designed to do, which is really just to suck them in and keep them playing, and you know, it’s a little bit. It’s a little bit evil. What what they’re able to do to these kids?
0:47:48 – Speaker 2
Well, yes, it’s, it’s evil slash. I don’t want to say impressive, it is evil, you know. And that’s why we need the remind, like the reminder now, of kind of saying like hey, yeah, this stuff is cool, right, guess what. Someone created it and you know what that someone could be you. So put the controller down. You know, put the controller down, turn the TV, put the tablet down or whatever, and you know, and and start creating something. Pick up a pen and start whatever it is. I mean, unfortunately I can’t say turn off the computer because you probably have to use it to create something, but the idea behind it is to stop consuming and start creating.
0:48:22 – Speaker 3
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. When I was at Machinima, one of the other things that I did that kind of made a mark on some people was a show called Mario Plush Forever. It’s definitely a YouTube program that had a cult audience behind it, and what we did was we used Mario Plush toys those little like stuffed animals and what I was finding was on YouTube the kids were using their video cameras and their phones to kind of record their play with, with these toys and they were getting a lot of views and I thought, well, you know, as a 30 some year old, I could probably swoop into this sub genre and do as a 30 year old.
0:48:59 – Speaker 2
I could totally outstrip an eight year old.
0:49:05 – Speaker 3
Exactly, exactly. That’s another one that I did. That’s very bizarre and very kind of controversial.
0:49:12 – Speaker 2
I gotta check that out now. What was it, mario? What?
0:49:17 – Speaker 3
Mario Plush Forever.
0:49:19 – Speaker 2
Okay, I gotta check that out.
0:49:20 – Speaker 3
Mario Plush Forever and people still to this day will send me messages and make comments on the video about how it changed them as kids, or that you know it was their childhood or whatever.
0:49:31 – Speaker 2
But that is cool.
0:49:32 – Speaker 3
It was cool. It’s it’s tonally. It’s tonally very weird, it’s kiddie, but then it becomes very adult in places. It was a kind of an experimentation of what you can do on a platform like YouTube and kind of harkening back to what we were talking about before the podcast started. You know the idea that anyone can get on YouTube and program content for children that doesn’t abide by any kind of you know, standard of what is kids content and what is an adult content. So it’s really an experimentation with what is, you know, kiddie but then all of a sudden very graphic and very violent and stuff like that. So that’s Mario Plush Forever and it was a lot of fun to make and definitely sent me down many strange rabbit holes as a content.
0:50:22 – Speaker 2
That is so cool though, but that’s another good point too. Like even thinking about like using plushies and stuff, or like, again, YouTube is such an interesting platform, even though it feels like it’s been around forever now but I’ve never considered like, yeah, what if I had like a, the whole kind of Nintendo plushy set? I could act out like that’s just, you know. Again, just another interesting concept someone could be doing, creating Like it’s just, there’s nothing out there to stop anyone anymore. Yeah.
0:50:51 – Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, for me it was really about figuring out how to do the green screen and light it correctly and be able to separate the assets well enough, you know, to be able to change the backgrounds and put your characters in whatever environment you need to play and, if you can, kind of crack that code which can be challenging. There’s you got to light things a certain way and you got to have the space.
0:51:13 – Speaker 2
Yeah, to work with and stuff yeah.
0:51:15 – Speaker 3
But it’s not that hard and if you can kind of figure that part out, there’s the sky is the limit, man. You can totally. You can kind of write anything and make it bring anything to life in that capacity.
0:51:26 – Speaker 2
Now, is there anything you’re working on right now? Lawnmet, yeah, Currently. Do you need any help with anything? Do you have a website for everyone to go to and check out? Oh, I appreciate it.
0:51:34 – Speaker 3
Yeah Well, I’ve got a company called Strickland Media, so it’s Stricklandmedia. If you just put that in your browser, that should pop up and it’s a. It’s a website that is selling my various different skills in post production, so it’s editing special effects, music, sound design awesome, a little bit of fat, but you know, prop fabrication Very cool. In terms of what I’m doing professionally. I’ve been working on a lot of like documentary productions, so sourcing content for a series of films called In Search of Darkness, which what’s that?
0:52:09 – Speaker 2
Can you tell people that’s about it? Yeah.
0:52:11 – Speaker 3
Yeah, in Search of Darkness is an epic documentary series about 80s cinema. So, yeah, really really cool it’s.
0:52:21 – Speaker 2
Dude that’s. I want to see that the second it comes out.
0:52:24 – Speaker 3
Oh, it’s so good and it’s out, you can, actually you can, you can get copies through Creator VC. I believe you have to kind of become a member of it’s. Very much what we were talking about in terms of, like, self distance, self distance.
0:52:36 – Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, and crowdfunding.
0:52:38 – Speaker 3
It’s a crowdfunding effort, okay, and to appease what the people throwing the money at it wanted, they were totally down for four hours. So we’re talking about like mammoth sized documentaries that are really well done. The director, david Weiner, is from Entertainment Tonight resume. He had all the the the Rolodex of like every creator and actor that was involved in these productions, and he’s a great interviewer and he’ll sit down with these amazing icons of the genre and get these incredible documentary interviews and it’s they’re all really well put together. They it’s done by primarily a team out of England and I sort of I sort of you know got my first experience with documentary through those films and that led me to another project that I’m currently working on and I’m in the kind of like close to signing on. It deals.
0:53:35 – Speaker 1
I can’t, I can’t, I can’t be specific about what it is.
0:53:39 – Speaker 3
One of the one of the major staples of the horror genre and it’s going to be an expansive documentary all about it.
0:53:46 – Speaker 2
Wow, okay, that’s very exciting. Also, then, that’s cool, okay, no, that’s really cool. So it was Stricklandmedia and there’ll be links in the show and everything. Lon, this was definitely the longest interview and I have no problem with that Because, like, there wasn’t even like a moment of silence. Man, I’m telling you, billy kills you is awesome. I’m a huge fan of your style, for sure, like you know, I can’t wait to check out the other ones that you mentioned and everything, and it’s been an honor, honor and pleasure to meet you and I cannot wait to be able to show Billy kills the internet. Is there anything else you wanted to mention? Any last words for the audience? Anything else you want to throw out there for anyone?
0:54:24 – Speaker 3
Well, yeah, I mean find it on on social media, you know, before it’s too late, because the internet’s going down.
0:54:31 – Speaker 2
Exactly, seriously, billy will kill the internet. So, but, lon, again, thanks for your time, man, it’s greatly appreciated and thank you so much for the submission. Everyone, thank you for listening and downloading. Don’t forget August 27th, fox, with Casino, you’ll be able to see Billy kills the internet there, also with many other people, and we’ll be more on that soon, august 27th, don’t forget, embrace your storm, see ya.
0:54:54 – Speaker 1
Tornado with Jonathan Nado. If you haven’t yet, please subscribe now. See you first to hear new episodes with more stories of inspiration about the highs and lows of life and how embracing the storm is so much more fulfilling of a life than being crushed by the weight of the world. And until then, we hope you’re inspired to do something, whether it’s creating, participating or learning, whatever leads you to your personal passion.
